How to Make Money Podcasting – Doug Sandler

How to Make Money Podcasting – Doug Sandler

Mar 20, 2020

In this episode, Cheryl and Doug discuss: 

  • The principles of Doug’s Nice Guys in business brand. 
  • His start in podcasting and the creation of his Turnkey Podcast production company. 
  • The value of podcasting as a marketing and branding tool 
  • Some of the myths around podcasting and how to monetize your podcast. 

Key Takeaways: 

  • Aim for a win-win in business transactions. 
  • Use podcasting to build your brand and generate leads. 
  • You don’t have to be an expert. Get people on your show who are specialists at what they do and ask them great questions.  
  • Launching a podcast is just the beginning – you have to build connection, community and currency. 

“My definition of success has nothing to do with winning through intimidation or by managing with an iron fist.” —  Doug Sandler    

Connect with Doug Sandler:
Website: turnkeypodcast.com
Free Resource: turnkeypodcast.com/gift
Twitter:  @djdoug
Facebook:  @dj.doug.sandler
Email:  doug@turnkeypodcast.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/doug-sandler-1a346649/
Instagram: @turnkeypodcast
Phone: (410) 340-6861

Connect with Cheryl Hodgson: 
Website: brandaide.com
Book: https://registeredtrademarkbook.com
Twitter:  twitter.com/brandaide
Facebook:  facebook.com/brandaide
Email:  cheryl@brandaide.com
Show: brandaidepodcast.com
YouTube: youtube.com/user/BrandaideTV
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/cherylhodgson
Instagram:  instagram.com/brandaide

Introduction [0:04]
Welcome to Brandaide where we answer the question, what does it take to launch your own brand (R)evolution? And who are the people that help Create | Build | Protect them. You will also meet brands changing the world and the lives of those they serve. Here's your host, Cheryl Hodgson.

Cheryl Hodgson [0:23]
Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Hodgson. Welcome to the Brandaide Podcast. My guest today is Doug Sandler. Doug is the host of the Nice Guys on Business Podcast. He also has written a number one best-selling book on Amazon, which is called Nice Guys in Business Finish First. And yes, Doug has done over what is it? 1000 episodes of Nice Guys on Business Podcast.

Doug Sandler [0:53]
Something crazy like that. I don't know why so many. I mean, I could have stopped like 700 episodes ago.

Cheryl Hodgson [1:01]
Well, that's what we're going to talk a little bit about today. And your Nice Guys on Business Podcast has been downloaded 3.2 million times in what-- 175 countries around the world?

Doug Sandler [1:13]
Again, crazy to think about this journey. It has been a good one.

Cheryl Hodgson [1:16]
Well tell me what does it take Doug to be a nice guy in business and nice.

Doug Sandler [1:21]
Well, thanks for having me on the show so very much. You know, it's interesting, a lot of people are perceived as a weakness in business, especially in the corporate world. They see this as a, this is somebody that probably is a little bit easy to intimidate and somebody that's probably a little bit weak constitution and nice doesn't mean that you have to roll over and do everything that other people say it just means that you know, you follow some easy principles like you catch people in the act, the act of doing something right as opposed to doing something wrong. You know, you're constantly looking at the wind for somebody else as opposed to what you're getting out of a situation I always look at a business opportunity is something for how can I serve and if I serve I know the money will always come at some point if it is a money transaction that we're trying to put together. So nice in business can mean things like returning your calls, returning your emails, being on time for appointments not over promising and under delivering, but instead actually exceeding expectations and reaching out and communicating with those that are most important in your life, whether professionally or personally on a daily basis. Those are things that you could apply to pretty much business or your personal life and be successful at it. And it's just amazing how many people just don't follow those easy life strategies in order to get ahead.

Cheryl Hodgson [2:30]
Well, I mean, the title alone, you must have hit a chord with people to have had such a great response over time with the podcast.

Doug Sandler [2:37]
Well, it's interesting in Chapter One, there's a quote and I'm just blanking right now on who wrote the quote, but in Chapter One, it basically says “If you don't think nice guys finish first, you don't know where the finish line is.”
And what's interesting about that is it's so true. I mean, nice guys really can finish first, it just depends on what your definition of finishing first is. So, for me, finishing first doesn't always mean winning in negotiation. How about a win, win in a negotiation? You know, how about where both you and the person you're negotiating with? If you're a business owner negotiating with a vendor, let's say, how about if you both win in this situation? Isn't that really a great partnership rather than beating through intimidation or winning through intimidation? So, I tend to follow that strategy.

Cheryl Hodgson [3:19]
Yes, I agree with you completely. You know, I'll share this with you briefly. Because, you know, as an attorney, I struggled and I come from the generation when I started out there weren't many women as lawyers really, relatively speaking. And if I got tough, I was labeled the B word. Right, right. But then on the other hand, a man who would have the same demeanor would be considered Okay, he's, he's good in business. He's tough. Right? Right. Right. Or he's a good lawyer. So, you know, I developed something that I read very interesting. I don't know if you remember who Catharine Graham was. She was your Washington Post. Yeah, absolutely. She was surprised for her biography, her autobiography. But a few years before that, in the vanity fair, there was an article about her. And there were quotes from famous people, one of whom I think it was Adlai Stevenson, who had been a diplomat and one of the secretaries of state or defense or something. And I love the quote, he said, which was her number one asset was “Her opponents and her adversaries always tended to underestimate her abilities.”

Doug Sandler [4:29]
Right, right. Well, that's kind of like the Peter Falk method. By the way. The other person that I quoted a little bit earlier was Garry Shandling. If you don't think nice guys finish first you don't know where the finish line is. But yes, Peter Falk as Colombo, he used to play this under underestimated guy so they could say anything to him because he's not going to remember he's just a bumbling idiot. Then he would usually “stumble on to the who done it” because he did allow everybody to put their guard down. And I'm not saying that I have an agenda of being Nice so that people will put your guard down. But I really feel like when I go to bed at night, I feel comfortable with who I am as a person because I've done everything that I thought I should be done to in order to be that nice person I want to put out to the world. What I want to get back and do I want to work with somebody that's a jerk or an ass? No, I want to work with somebody that respects me, that's a nice guy also. So, by doing those few things that I laid out earlier, I feel like that's the least you can do in order to be that nice guy?

Cheryl Hodgson [5:29]
Well, and I agree with you because I am just to kind of take that to his conclusion. I struggled as a young lawyer for probably 10 years and more with that, you know, persona. Who am I going to be a lawyer? Or who I really am. I really am basically a nice person and so some people think Well, can you be tough? So, my way of dealing with it I heard someone suggest this: admit metaphysical terms, the iron fist and the velvet glove less than and blast them, you know, I mean, it's like, you know.

Doug Sandler [5:58]
I have a sledgehammer too. Mine just has a red velvet glove on it. Exactly right.

Cheryl Hodgson [6:02]
Exactly.

Doug Sandler [6:04]
Yeah, you don't have to be a jerk in order to be successful. And if you if being successful means being a jerk, then I guess I'll leave the definition of success to somebody else. Because my definition of success has nothing to do with winning through intimidation, or by managing with an iron fist. It's just not how I am.

Cheryl Hodgson [6:21]
Yeah. And I appreciate that. Well, listen, we're going to get back to this topic, but you know, Is it you who does this? Should you do this on your podcast? And I've already sort of copped it because I like it so much. share something that no one knows about you.

Doug Sandler [6:36]
Oh, no, I don't do that. But that's a great question. I may have to steal that from me. Maybe I do share some of that in some of the questions, but I will share the answer with you, share something that somebody might not know about. I already know what the answer should be, but I don't even know maybe you know something differently than I do. But I spent nearly 30 years of my life as a bar mitzvah MC so I've done over 2000 Bar Mitzvahs as the guy running the show. I don't know if that's the same thing.

Cheryl Hodgson [7:04]
Fabulous.

Doug Sandler [7:05]
I reinvented my career in 2013 to become a professional speaker. And believe it or not, I still have some of those Bar Mitzvah jobs on the books currently. Now, I don't do the 75 to 90 of them every year, like I did for 20 plus years, but in the last handful of years, I would say 10 to 15 of them is about the number that I have. I live in LA and all of those gigs are back in the DC marketplace where I came from. I fly back on average of about once a month to do those jobs that are still on the books right now.

Cheryl Hodgson [7:36]
Well, you know, if for some reason the podcasting world doesn't float your boat anymore, you can always go back to bar mitzvahs here.

Doug Sandler [7:45]
There are so many I know there are many in the Los Angeles area, but you know, I've gotten used to getting my weekends back again, because for 30 years, my weekends were shot or 20 plus years, my weekends were shot and it went through. It put me through a couple of challenged relationships as a part of losing those weekends as well.

Cheryl Hodgson [8:01]
I'm sure So, tell me how did you get into the podcasting business? What prompted you to decide to jump into podcasts?

Doug Sandler [8:09]
Sure, thanks for the question. In 2013 when I reinvented my career as a professional speaker, I wanted a way to promote my professional speaking business and then my book, which was a part of my professional speaking business to get more speaking gigs. I wanted to write a book to put out there, I was measuring up the cost of a publicist at the time, it was going to be somewhere between $2500 to $3500 a month to hire a publicist to help me promote my book. Not only did I not have that money as a part of my career reinvention, because I probably didn't do as good a job as I would like to have saving from that 20 plus years as apartments to MC but I looked at it and said, Hey, this is something that I really need to focus on, but I don't have the money to spend. I saw this thing that was kind of gaining momentum called podcasting. And we created my partner and I Strickland created a podcast to help promote my book and my speaking business. That was the beginning of the next phase in my life because the speaking business led to the book. The book led to the podcast and the podcast led to other people saying to me, “How have you gotten to be so popular in the podcasting world? Can you teach us how to do that?” And we pivoted, and we changed our entire business model from promoting my book and my speaking business through the podcast to promoting a podcast, you know, launch package and production package through podcasting as well. And that's where we are right now.

Cheryl Hodgson [9:29]
The title of my podcast is Brandaide (R)evolution. It ties in. So how does a podcast impact your career, your brand, whether it's your personal brand, or if you have another brand that you're marketing?
Doug Sandler [9:48]
I can recall for a couple years back in 2013, our podcast didn't launch until 2015. But a couple of years prior to launching the podcast I remember every week, writing a blog. And that blog used to come out on Tuesday morning at 7am. And on Monday night at about midnight, I'd start to get nervous because I hadn't written anything yet. And for me, podcasting was a way for me to share my personality with my market. I love it because I don't ever seem to be short of words to say. And so we went to a five episode a week podcast fairly quickly within the first two years of launching our show.

Cheryl Hodgson
That’s a huge commitment.

Doug Sandler
Huge commitment. But when you realize that every part of our business plan, our business model was tied closely into our podcast. Our podcast not only was a way for us to share our message, but it was our business development tool. It was our lead generation tool. It was a way for us to network. It was a creator of relationships, that we developed JV partnerships through. Our entire brand NICE GUYS ON BUSINESS evolved from my book, Nice Guys Finish First, which came out of a whole philosophy of being nice as a way to excel in business. It is all wrapped up in my brand.
My podcast became a part of my brand and an integral part of every part of my life because then I started to meet people within the podcasting space, building relationships with them. And I actually found love through podcasting, too, because I met someone at a podcasting conference, and JJ Flizanes who is my partner and girlfriend. She has several podcasts, too. For me, podcasting has really become not only a part of my business brand, but my personal brand as well.

Cheryl Hodgson [11:28]
That’s a great story. Well, you know, I've only been at it a short time, but I certainly met some of those people at the New Media Summit, the event that Steve Olsher puts on and I've just been blown away by the type of people, the caliber of people. They are just so much fun to hang out with.

Doug Sandler [11:45]
I feel that I feel the same way. You know, between Steve and Michael Neely and JJ Flizanes
and dozens and dozens and dozens of other people. I really have changed my life dramatically over the last five years since launching this show.

Cheryl Hodgson [11:59]
The thing that I noticed about the podcasting world so far is that there are so many people at a point in their lives where they know a lot, or they have contribution to make, or they've made big contributions, whether it's in corporate America, or they have knowledge as a professional like me, but they feel that there's some way to take it to another level or to somehow expand upon it and share it with the world to make a contribution.

Doug Sandler [12:26]
So let me throw this at you too. Because I think that most people do look at that angle and say, well, that's why podcasting may be a challenge for me, not me or you. But for me as someone that is, maybe I don't really know what my gift to business is. Maybe I really don't understand where my zone of genius is. I don't really have anything to share on the podcast. What I would say to you is, “if that's your case, play the third grader as the host of the show. You play curious and have people on your show that are totally in the zone of knowing what they do. You ask questions from a point of curiosity.” Believe it or not, you get free coaching. I get free coaching, you know, three times a week. We do three episodes a week now. And even though I feel like from a podcasting perspective, I'm an expert and no more than most in the podcasting space, there are so many things in business that I learned from the guests that are on my show, that even though I don't have anything to contribute to the conversation when it comes to their expertise, I'm learning from them as my audience is learning from them, too. So even the amateurs or even the people that don't have a zone of genius to contribute. As someone that has so many years of experience in law as you do, and as somebody that has so many years of podcasting as I do, if you don't have a show that's based upon that, you can still have a become everything from a position of curiosity and do extremely well in podcasting.

Cheryl Hodgson [13:43]
That’s a fabulous way to put it because I think, in addition, what I said I think that is what resonates with me. I just love the opportunity to meet people who have had totally different lives who know something I know nothing about. And that is what I enjoy about what I do as an attorney with clients who come to me and I get to learn about their businesses. I go Wow, that's really cool.

Doug Sandler [14:07]
I just recently had somebody on the show her name is Molly Mandal Bergen and Molly is what would be considered previously as a digital nomad. I think she is an independent entrepreneur with a location independent entrepreneur is what they call people that do that now. She lives in a van--it's a very nice van. But she travels all over the country, she does not have a permanent residence. She has an internet connection, which allows her to do all this stuff and to learn from her and her skill set, which is basically marketing. I would never have thought that there would be any advantage for me or somebody that even has a family to do something like that. But there's huge advantages of being location independent. And I know I just never thought about it. She's the expert in that space and was a great story to share.

Cheryl Hodgson [14:53]
Well, I had a boyfriend once years ago, he'd been a comedy writer for TV. I remember one at one point, this was years after we had broken up. We were still good friends and he showed up to help me move after I broke my ankle in Portland, Oregon. This was many years ago. And my place was packed and I remember he sat me down and he said, what you haven't figured out Cheryl is you don't need a home. It's your stuff that needs a home.

Doug Sandler [15:18]
That is wow that is a really valid point. I never really thought about that.

Cheryl Hodgson [15:22]
As far as being location independent, you know, if you don't have a lot of stuff weighing you down, you can pretty much go anywhere.

Doug Sandler [15:29]
I'll tell you the quickest remedy to understanding that you really don't need a home, your stuff needs a home, is just go through a divorce. I went through a divorce about a year and a half ago and it is amazing how condensed I can put my stuff all together in basically a 10 by 12 room with some photos and my clothes are right over here. It's like, okay, you know, you can really tighten up a lot if you just give yourself an opportunity to do so.

Cheryl Hodgson [15:52]
What are some of the myths about podcasting for those people who might be interested or considering starting a podcast?

Doug Sandler [16:00]
● You don't have to be technically savvy in order to start a podcast.
● You don't need a lot of money to start a podcast.
● You don't have to be extroverted in order to start up a podcast.
● You don't have to be a celebrity in order to be successful at podcasting.
● And you don't need a big audience for a podcast to be successful.
As a matter of fact, one of the stories I share is one of the we did a case study of monetization of a podcast and we actually made close to $40,000 on a show that had been yet to launch and we made $40,000 before the show even launched. You don't even need to have your episodes published yet in order to make money from your podcast! We share with people those myths because there really is it for whatever excuse that you have for not getting into podcasting. It is all in your head that's holding you back. What you think is holding you back is not really holding you back.

Cheryl Hodgson [16:52]
Well, I think I'm a perfect example of that. You know, I mean, one of the little mantras I have is “Find your voice. Share it with the world.” You know, I had a lot of stuff in my head for 10 years where I kept taking all these courses. But I never launched anything. Yeah. And what it really came down to was the stories in my head. And it was really a fear of being seen and heard for who I am.

Doug Sandler [17:14]
Well, and us some as you took the class that we taught the lunch of podcast course through Steve, you asked a lot of really great questions in that class, knowing that you're in hopefully knowing that you were in a safe spot to ask those questions, because a lot of them were revolving around technology or just the how to’s of it. And that tends to be what holds back people. They're like,
“Well, I don't know how these microphone things work, or I don't really know how, how would I find a guest? Or how do I organize the information? Or how do I build an audience?”
I'm like, it's impossible to steer a parked car. Let's get the car rolling, and then we can start to steer it a little bit. And that's where a podcast production company comes into play or a DIY a good course comes into play. If you're thinking about launching a podcast, just don't try to do or figure it out on your own. It's been reinvented. You know, it's been invented eight hundred thousand times, there's 800,000 podcasts that are out there. People have already done this. Let us just take you by the hand and show you with a system, how to create and launch a podcast.

Cheryl Hodgson [18:08]
Yes, there's only one problem I'm still having. I still have not figured out how to set up the microphone. It's great. Well, you have a great I have a desk one. It's the boom mic.

Doug Sandler [18:18]
It’s tomato, tomato, you're podcasting. Right now, you've created this. And you put one element in here that most people don't. And if you're if you're watching this, that is the element that you're seeing the video that Cheryl has done, which is which is the thing that most people don't do. Now, I don't think you have to have a video podcast in order to be a successful podcaster. But certainly, you've added in an element that most people never even get to because they just don't want to learn how to figure it out. And you've done a great job with that.

Cheryl Hodgson [18:44]
I'm having fun with it. That's the most important thing. Now you've talked about making $40,000? Can you share a bit more about how you really make money with a podcast?

Doug Sandler [18:55]
There's a handful of ways that you can really make money at podcasting. Most people tie monetization of a podcast into one simple thing, and that is sponsorship or advertising, which just isn't a reality for normal people like you and me. For a guy like Joe Rogan, or Tim Ferris who already come to the podcasting platform with millions, if not hundreds of millions of people that have heard their brand and know their name. We don't have that privilege of having that, so we're going to start at ground zero. It’s benchmark zero, we have no listeners.
We have to build our entire audience. If you rely upon traditional advertising, you won't make any money from podcasting if you're a normal person like you or me.

Cheryl Hodgson
A mere mortal, a mere mortal

Doug Sandler
Exactly. Sponsorship and advertising are one way, but a small way. Donations are another way like Patreon or GoFundMe or any of those, that's another small way. Selling your services through a call to action to your community, that's a very popular way. You build an audience of size. You sell your legal services, my podcast, production services, I sell it to my audience. Again, you need an audience in order to do that. Joint Venture partnerships are a great way to make money. So, you have a relationship with me, we discover that we have some things in common, it would make sense for us to partner on a project. Joint venture partnerships are a really good way for you to make money from your show as it as an indirect way to make your show.
Another way, which a lot of people are not using at all is guest client strategy. So, you as a guest, on my show you come on the show, I talked to you about the stuff that you do that's so great in the world with law and branding and intellectual property. And I ask you if you've ever started a podcast, you say “no.” I say “Do you want to have a conversation about that”?
I potentially can turn you into a podcasting production client of mine. So Guest to Client strategy. And those are really just a handful of ways that people can make money from a show. You don't have to specify exactly which one of those that you want to do in order to make money. I actually use all of those to make money and to diversify my income from my podcast. So while last year we may have done 30 or $40,000 in advertising, or whatever that number is, you know, we've done hundreds of thousands of dollars in joint venture partnership relationships and a few thousand dollars in selling online courses and services that we have. There are so many ways that you can make money from podcasting.

Cheryl Hodgson [21:10]
In your turnkey podcast services that you offer people, do actually help people with the monetization aspect?

Doug Sandler [21:19]
Absolutely. If somebody wants to stick around after they launch their show and understand how now that they built their show, this is really when the work begins. Launching the show is just really the beginning. It's the beginning of figuring out where it is that you are.
Are you looking to build community?
Are you looking to build influence?
Are you looking to make money and those are three separate strategies that we focus on?
As a part of building a show, post launch? We can't do any of those things. Really, I can't help you build community until you have a show launched. I mean, we can develop a strategy but we really can't put it into play until you've launched a show and get rolling. And until you know what your market is and who your audience is and the people that are listening to your show, I really have no way to help you build community or build influence. I don't know what I'm helping you build influence in. If you look at it from this perspective: I got into podcasting to promote a book and a speaking business. We're now five years in, 1000 plus episodes later. I have pivoted, probably two or three times since starting a podcast, not because I'm flaky and have no idea what I want to do when I grow up. It's because this is what my audience and the people that have come on my show have told me that they wanted from me. I had our first client, Lou Diamond, he came to me (not the famous guy), but another Lou Diamond. He said, “Hey, Doug, I see that you've built a pretty sizable audience. Can you teach me how to do the same thing?” And that was the first idea that we had to even get into podcast production, or strategy. So absolutely. Once somebody launches a show, we can show them how to monetize. We can show them how to influence. We can show them how to build community.

Cheryl Hodgson [22:47]
Well, that's fascinating what you just said that you pivoted. How did you pivot? You mean you changed the focus of the show.

Doug Sandler [22:59]
In our case, we didn't have to change the focus of this show because we still have a business show. And now we've discovered that a lot of people that are in our community are wanting to learn some of the skills that we have developed as podcasters to bring on a podcast of their very own. And it doesn't mean that I'm going to stop teaching good business advice. It means that when I get you on my show, Cheryl, let's say that you're a guest that doesn't know who I am. When I have you on my show, yes, we're going to talk about what you do and how you increase people's awareness of people's brands. And that's certainly a great thing. And that is what my audience is hearing. But what I am hearing is, “Wow, you know all about this stuff when it comes to branding and you know, marketing and you understand business and you understand all that.” And my simple question is, “I'm curious Cheryl, why is it that you don't have a podcast?” That's my big close. I don't approach it with any agenda, like, “I'm going to get Cheryl.” You know, I'm going to close her in a deal. In my head, I'm thinking as you're telling your story. I'm like, “Oh my God. She does some really cool stuff. I'm curious why she doesn't have a podcast.” And if you didn't have a podcast, and then basically I say, hey, let me let me help you create that. But let's say that you had a podcast, you had 100 episodes out, and you haven't made any money, and you haven't built a big community, and you haven't really created any influence, I might say to you now, “What was your goal when you originally got into podcasts?” And if your goal was to make money, let's say, I would say, “How much have you made?” And if you say “nothing,” then I feel like I am obligated now to tell you, “you need to make money.”
Steve Olsher was that for me, Steve came on my show. And he was the creator, as you know of New Media Summit. He came on my show, about two years into our run of podcasting. We were a couple hundred episodes in and we had probably about a million downloads of our show. And he said to me, how much have you made from your show? And I said, “Okay, let me think about that. Zero.” And he said, “if you're not making at least (and I can't remember the number he gave me) $150,000 $200,000 then something is wrong.” And for me, that light bulb went off at that moment thinking, holy, Wow, I can't believe we haven't made any money from our show yet. And that kind of changed all of our strategy. I was just doing it to build influence and build community had nothing to do with money at that point.

Cheryl Hodgson [25:17]
Well, and I think that's one of the keys I talked about the different pillars of the things you were helping people win. One of the words you mentioned was community, right? I've been playing with three words that I'm into this alliteration thing that I've gotten from Joel Bauer, right. But in terms of what is a brand, and I actually kind of talked about this on Steve's podcast a few weeks ago, namely building connection, community and currency. If you create the connection, and build community around your connections with your audience or your customers, then you know that becomes your currency and that can be looked at as financial currency but also currency in terms of goodwill. Your reputation and your brand. And then I had the pleasure of interviewing someone last week who suggested, “Well, the only word I would change is instead of community, I would use the word contribution” which is also pretty cool.

Doug Sandler [26:15]
Well, what's great about it is, and I'm looking at the connection community and currency I'm looking at connection is influence. Community is community, and currency is making money. So, it's the same three things for the podcast world. It's “make money, build influence, or build community.” And so, it is really the same thing no matter where you go. I mean, what else is there community, influence, or money which one? And you don't have to say, “I only want to do it to build my bank account.” I could say “Hey, listen, I'm going to get into podcasting. I have those three things as my goals. I want to primarily focus on making money, but community and influence are important.” And so let's say that you're an influencer in your world. I know that when you come on my show, if you're an influencer in my world, and your world also, me hanging out with you will help create more influence for me. There are people that will help you build community, there's people that are going to help you build influence, and there's people that are going to come on your show that are going to help you make money. One of those three things is always on my agenda.

Cheryl Hodgson [27:15]
Well say it does tie perfectly into Brandaide. That’s actually my whole thing., I always say “create, build and protect” as well. But that's what building a brand is, is you've got to have people who help you in all of those aspects at some point, and it's going to be different for everyone. And the timing of what you need will be different for everyone.

Doug Sandler [27:37]
Absolutely. But you can't do it alone. I can tell you; I can't do it alone. I mean, I've had again 1000 episodes of running on the Nice Guys on Business and I'd say 700 plus of them have been interviews. My business would be nothing had it not been for the relationships I created with those 700 guests, or a small percentage of those 700 guests. Some of them came on and I've never talked to them again. Some of them have come on like Steve, and we built a great partnership and business relationship.

Cheryl Hodgson [28:04]
Well, you know, as a kid, I had this psychological thing I adopted as a child when my dad got sick at a very young age. My way of coping with his illness when I was eight years old, I tried to be the perfect kid. And the Lone Ranger, which means I could do it myself, right. I didn't need any help. I didn't want anyone to think I couldn't take care of myself.

Doug Sandler [28:28]
That's really hard to build anything on your own. Yeah, need relationships to do that.

Cheryl Hodgson [28:32]
I struggled with that as an adult. And it got me pretty far, in many ways, because it got me an opportunity to get an education. But then at some point, it became counterproductive, right, and realizing that you can't do it all alone, you know.
I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. But I do have one final question before we leave, actually two questions. One, is do you have any sort of free gift for our audience?

Doug Sandler [28:56]
Gift, I love that. I'll make it really easy. It's https://turnkeypodcast.com/gift. I think the gift right now is “Five ways to make Money Podcasting” and then it goes into some details. It's either that gift or “Secrets of Top Podcasts Revealed,” depending on when they're clicking on this, it'll be one of those two things.
But there are some good stories behind the success of many podcasters. You've heard just some of the story behind my success. But this story or stories like this have been, you know, duplicated hundreds of times. So out of five interviews, I boiled it down into these five podcasters that show a lot of promise and a lot of success in their businesses.

Cheryl Hodgson
Oh, that's great. And it is https://turnkeypodcast.com/gift?
Doug Sandler
That is correct.

Cheryl Hodgson
And we will put that in the show notes for those of you who might be listening by audio and can't stop your car to write it down. Which is one of the things I've noticed. We also make sure it goes in the show notes.
And one of my other favorite questions to ask before we go is what is on your bucket list either personally or professionally, that you aspire to in 2020 or beyond?
Doug Sandler
Well, you know, when I went into 2019, from 2018, my strategy or one of my goals was to spend time only within my zone of genius. And my zone of genius is relationship building and selling. I didn't want to deal with spreadsheets, I didn't want to deal with accounting, I didn't want to deal with any of this stuff that I didn't know including web design and creation, marketing and branding, all that stuff is so outside of my zone of genius.
We've actually accumulated a really great team of six others that have been on our team for the last couple of years or last year at least, to help me get outside of all of those other things and stay in my zone of genius. Now going into 2020. I wanted to add one more thing on to that so I want to continue building relationships and selling, but I really want to focus very much in 2020 on building joint venture partnerships and I don't need 50 joint venture partnerships in order to be successful.
I've seen what the profit and what financially it can do just to have one or two. The idea behind 2020 on my goal list this year is to develop five joint venture partnerships that will take me into 2021. And I know it's going to happen now that I've set the intention, I set it and set the goal to do that. And literally on January 2, I got two emails from two people that have been guests on our show, wanting to explore the opportunity of a joint venture partnership. I'm like, maybe this is what their goal is to. It was nice to get those emails from people.

Cheryl Hodgson [31:33]
Doug, I want to thank you so much for taking time to join us on the show. And perhaps you'd be willing to come back at some point in the future and share with us a little more about the joint ventures and how that's coming along.

Doug Sandler [31:45]
I’d love to share them. And I would love to get you on my show as well. I know that this is a newly launched show. And one of the things that I want to do, as producer of your show is to have you come on my show and promote your show and your business as well. We’ll make that happen.

Cheryl Hodgson [32:00]
Twist my arm. I'd love to make that happen. Thanks again and we will talk to you on the other side.

Doug Sandler [32:08]
Thanks, Cheryl.

Cheryl Hodgson [32:13]
Thanks for listening to the Brandaide podcast. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, rate and recommend us on iTunes, Overcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also go to www.brandaidepodcast.com to listen and learn more. For more information and important links about today's episode, check out today's show notes.

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